What is wron with this 21 Duck gun up for auction...?

[cartod]

Here's the auction: http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=10477973

Heres the cody sheet: On your model 21, serial number 26143:

Symbol: G2101B

Start Date: 1-16-1952

For: stock

Grade: duck

Gauge: 12

Barrel Length: 32”

Right Choke: full

Left Choke: full

Chamber: 3”

Trigger: single

Ejector: selective

Safety: automatic

Stock: pistol grip

Finish: duck

Butt: Winchester recoil pad

Final Date: 2-18-1952

There is no order sheet available for this firearm.

[Grant Tom]

This 21 apears to have been refinished not by Winchester factory. How ever looks very good by photos. Don't worry about the order sheet. In the 50s, it was a production Gun.

[P.Muerrle]

Besides a lousy refinish of gun there is no inscription on the bbls. Taking a good look at the stampings on the bbl. flats I can tell you that wasn't done at the factory.

[ajjar]

Letter says 32 inch barrels and ad says 30 inch barrels

[budrichard]

G2101B is a stock 32" non VR with bead front sight.
Gun shown has 30" VR and Red Bradly.
Seller does not say the gun is original configuration.-Dick

[cartod]

No barrel markings and gun should be 32" non vented. How did they raise the top of the reciever to meet the new VR barrels. It does not look like they did it correctly (doesnt match a factory raised reciever, and its not bead blasted for glare either.) Sure seems like alot of time to go into faking a VR gun. Why?

[Grant Tom]

A good gun smith can do it. Pachmayer's Freddie Bruner did many 21's for Pachmayer. Some one just wanted a VR gun to shoot

[cartod]

Was this the work of Galazan's , It sure looks like the frame they use on the new 21? Can they put an old serial no on a new frame, because that is sure what it looks like to me...

Look at their new 21, it has the same indentation on the frame where it meets the rib; http://www.connecticutshotgun.com/model21.html

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/M215.jpg

Here is gun from auction:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Guns%20and%20Hunting/img_0759_jpg_thumbnail0.jpg

[P.Muerrle]

I can tell you that the stampings on the bbl. flats are identical to the way he has stamped others. It was NOT stamped that way in the factory. Considering that there is no bbl. inscription on the left bbl. I would have to assume that the bbls. are not factory.

[budrichard]

At one time Galazan had VR barrels for the Non-VR guns that had been made in Italy.
I tried to purchase a set for a VR M21 I had and the receiver height difference for VR versas non-VR m21's was explained to me. These barrels would not fit my VR M21.
So the supposition that these barrels are from Galazan is certainly good.-Dick

[Wingshooter54]

Looking at other pics from the CSMC 21 catalog, the rib on this gun from auction arms is exactly like the vent ribs on new CSMC 21's. One can only wonder what happened to the 32" barrels listed on the cody sheet; perhaps the owner traded in the non vent rib barrels for 30" VR barrels through Galazan. Tony acquired 21 in the white barrels from Winchester when they closed and surely used them on 21's as extra barrels for customers. If they have a work history for this gun, then the barrels may be original Winchester. As I have acquired this gun (and it is in wonderful shape; lever to the right, tight, and shoots extremely well) this is information I intend to find out. My small collection has some complete original 21's, but I hunt with and shoot all of them. This one will be used to reduce the Oklahoma greenhead population this winter.

[cartod]

Looking at other pics from the CSMC 21 catalog, the rib on this gun from auction arms is exactly like the vent ribs on new CSMC 21's. One can only wonder what happened to the 32" barrels listed on the cody sheet; perhaps the owner traded in the non vent rib barrels for 30" VR barrels through Galazan. Tony acquired 21 in the white barrels from Winchester when they closed and surely used them on 21's as extra barrels for customers. If they have a work history for this gun, then the barrels may be original Winchester. As I have acquired this gun (and it is in wonderful shape; lever to the right, tight, and shoots extremely well) this is information I intend to find out. My small collection has some complete original 21's, but I hunt with and shoot all of them. This one will be used to reduce the Oklahoma greenhead population this winter.Nice gun but the question for me is what happened to the reciever, and why did they stamp an old winchester serial number on a brand new csmc reciever? Seems maybe the reciever and barrels were damaged and they wanted to match the wood up?????That gun is very nice but its not a Winchester.

[Wingshooter54]

If I get a response back from Galazan's about any work being done on 26143 I will post it...new CSMC 21's are flatside receivers which led me to believe this was the original
receiver. Looking at the receiver with a magnifier though, it looks like the rib hump on the receiver was added later. The barrels are not rust blued, but hot blued. The seller is questioning the estate it came from for information also. Be that as it may, I am a shooter, not a purist collector, and the price was right for a gun of this quality. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find production year guns that have not been "dinked" with in some way. I recently looked at a Trap-Skeet grade that was supposedly a 1946 gun but the forearm had diamond pattern checkering like the 50's guns. One of the most reputable high quality gun dealers in the U.S. is listing this gun as original. 21's have probably been altered and faked more than any other shotgun except maybe Parkers. One very reputable Parker expert and dealer had a drawer full of Parker barrel pieces that were all either 2" or 4" in length, but that's another story. Regarding Cody documentation; their information is not as accurate as believed. Those records on Winchester model 21's have been "dinked" with. Any 1930-1959 21, whether original or not is still a 21 in my book. There were far less of those made than Parkers, Foxes, Purdeys, Hollands, Lefevers, L.C. Smiths, etc.....

[P.Muerrle]

If I were planning on shooting this gun I wouldn't be too happy with M21 bbls. that were hot blued.

[Wingshooter54]

When I said hot blued, I meant they were as shiny blue as the receiver. They may not be... I am aware of the solder/rust blue situation with 21 barrels. These barrels ring like chimes. You saw the pics from the original post on this gun. What bluing process do you think was used, Ms. Muerrle?

[P.Muerrle]

From the pics it sure looks like hot blue to me. Any rust bluing or browning, as they refered to it up in the Custom Shop, was a different color than the frame and had a satin finish to it as opposed to a high gloss sheen.

[Wingshooter54]

I have a couple of original 21's and the blueing on the barrels is a subdued shine.... I have already shot this gun several times and will keep on shooting it. if the barrels separate, then I should have remembered "caveat emptor" I could have bought a side by side from Italy or Spain for the same $$$$ but it just wouldn't have the romantic appeal. Thank you for your input Pauline, you're a wealth of info.

[cartod]

If I get a response back from Galazan's about any work being done on 26143 I will post it...new CSMC 21's are flatside receivers which led me to believe this was the originalreceiver. Looking at the receiver with a magnifier though, it looks like the rib hump on the receiver was added later. The barrels are not rust blued, but hot blued. The seller is questioning the estate it came from for information also. Be that as it may, I am a shooter, not a purist collector, and the price was right for a gun of this quality. It is becoming increasingly difficult to find production year guns that have not been "dinked" with in some way. I recently looked at a Trap-Skeet grade that was supposedly a 1946 gun but the forearm had diamond pattern checkering like the 50's guns. One of the most reputable high quality gun dealers in the U.S. is listing this gun as original. 21's have probably been altered and faked more than any other shotgun except maybe Parkers. One very reputable Parker expert and dealer had a drawer full of Parker barrel pieces that were all either 2" or 4" in length, but that's another story. Regarding Cody documentation; their information is not as accurate as believed. Those records on Winchester model 21's have been "dinked" with. Any 1930-1959 21, whether original or not is still a 21 in my book. There were far less of those made than Parkers, Foxes, Purdeys, Hollands, Lefevers, L.C. Smiths, etc.....The reciever has had to have been either replaced or grinded down to look like that. Look at the rounded boss's on the reciever, Winchester never did that. CSMC's lumps look just like that guns. It is a great looking gun but do you see what I mean?

[cartod]

Check out the round boss's on that gun and compare it to one of your 21's. Also, when galazans bought the rights to the 21 Im pretty sure they got a bunch of unused frames.


http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Guns%20and%20Hunting/img_0762_jpg_thumbnail0.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Guns%20and%20Hunting/3_2684_22.jpg