How many, and what for?

[Jimmy W]

So how many 21s do you guys have and what do you use them for? I have eight that I have been collecting over the past five to six years. They range from Custom Grade to older field grades. All of them are 12 gauges except for one which is an older 20. I useone of mine with 32" barrels for trap shooting, and one does most of my hunting. The others pretty much stay in the safe. What do you guys have? Thanks and good luck.

[budrichard]

My numbers are somewhat decreasing as I take my Winchester Model 21's and trade them for higher grade Model 21's. I have owned SKEET, 32" Duck, 32" 'Custom Built' Trap/Live Pigeon, 20 gauge 'Custom Grade' out of the Custom Shop and one of CSMC's 'Baby' Frame Model 21's.
I have enjoyed each one for its purpose, for upland game, the SKEET grades are about the best there is. The Duck's are superb for waterfowl but you must use Kent TM today. CSMC is currently building me another make which they will warrent for steel shot but after that, I am thinking of a 12 gauge Model 21 suitable for Hevi-Shot with 32" barrels, IM/F if they can make a barrel steel hard enough.
I use all my 21's except for the 20 gauge 'Custom Grade' which mostly sits in its case. One of 1030 Model 21's to come out of the Custom Shop, it is the pinnacle of Winchester production. CSMC Model 21's have now equaled Winchester Model 21's except for the Ulrich engraved guns if you can find them.-Dick

[kgb]

Three; a Skeet gun and two bird guns. The Skeet gun's been refinished, the stock is short, and I had a set of subgauge tubes fitted to shoot all of the gauges. Haven't shot it in two years, and with costs going up related to shooting registered, it won't get much more use. Will get out this year a few times, though.

The other 2 are 16ga, 26" barrels, two triggers and ejectors.

I shot the first one for a couple of seasons, then had Andy's Custom Shop refinish the metal and fit a long tang for a straight grip. When I had a stock made for it, I had the dimensions higher than factory and like the way it shoots. It was built in 1940, is choked IC and IM, and according to the letter was made for stock at Abercrombie and Fitch. The original pg/sf stock is very light and pretty straight grained. Nothing like every single other M21 that is featured at high end gun shops with feathercrotch stocks of eye-popping beauty. One would think the original on this 21 was a replacement from the lumberyard.

The second one is a Trap grade, reversed chokes are Cyl in the right and Mod in the left, made in 1940 as well. When I bought it it was already restocked, and instead of adding a proper trigger guard the stocker just straightened the original short guard and cut his checkering to correspond. It looks okay, just isn't correct. Someone had reversed the triggers so the front fired the left barrel, a gypsy way of getting the front trigger to fire the open choke. Ultimately that didn't matter because someone opened the Mod barrel to .003". I swapped the triggers back (which put them back in line) and last year sent the barrels to Mike Orlen to jug-choke the Mod barrel to get some choke back into it. I shot this gun nearly exclusive of all others in 2006-2007, with the .003"/.000" chokes, and it worked out just fine. The letter on this gun has even less information than the one on the first 16, but it does identify it as a Trap grade and lists the name of the individual for whom it was built. It states that the stock should be shortened 1/8" from standard, but that doesn't really matter since the original stock is MIA. This is my keeper 21.

Kirk

[budrichard]

Bob Beach at Griffin & Howe now can search the A&F records for you and for $50 can send you a copy of the ledger showing your gun and disposition and a Certificate of original specs and sale from A&F. This service allowed me to determine that an A&F 2" Brit boxlock was made by J&W Tolley. -Dick

[rperlichek]

Hi Guys - New member here - Perly88, Albuquerque, NM - Have 4 '21's, shoot 3 of the 4. I guess my favorite is a 16ga. "Skeet" grade w/ 28.0" bbls., choked mod/full ca. 1946 - The only "gun safe queen" is a 32" "Duck" model 99% condition which I have never taken out to shoot.

I recently acquired a 12ga. 30.0" Win. vent rib engraved gun (non-factory engraving) very tastefully done. The gun has thin-wall Briley chokes and is a very nice shooter for skeet & sporting clays.

I would love to post a pic. of the gun to see if someone could identify the engraver - Some people have told me they think it was Rudolph Kornbrath or Arnold Griebel (sp) - but nobody knows for sure.

Any takers on the identification?

Regards: Bob

[budrichard]

Unfortuneatly there is no 'registry' of engravers with samples for comparison. After market engraving seemed to br quite popular over the years. I wonder if the Winchester engravers were more expnsive or had a longer waiting time. I suppose both really.
Post a few pictures and the serial number so we can know when the gun was made roughly. Even Winchester engraved Model 21's are difficult if not impossible to identify the engraver because these guns were not signed and there is no record of who engraved what.
The 32" 'Duck' is one of my favorite Model 21's. I expect that the chokes are 35/35 thousands because every one I have measured is that way. They are a pass shooting gun for geese because modern ammunition patterns tighter than lead ammunition of the day.
Nice collection!-Dick

[Tim Earney]

I have three 21's. One is a 1933, Tournament Skeet, 20 gauge, 26", Skt.1 & Skt.2, SST, PG, checkered butt, beavertail. I have had it since 1980 and shoot it quite a bit. It is a great quail and woodcock gun not to mention skeet. It does have extraordinary wood.
Next is a 1942, 16 gauge field gun, 28", IC & Mod, SST, PG, checkered butt, splinter forend. This one really has some extraordinary wood. It is an excellent grouse and pheasant gun over the pointing dogs. It is my favorite shotgun for sporting clays and 5 stand. If this was a terrible world and I could only have one shotgun, this would be it.
Last is a 1950, 12 gauge, Deluxe Field, 28", Mod. & IM., SST, PG, Win. pad, beavertail. It is an excellent live pigeon, duck, pheasant, and doubles trap gun. It also has really nice wood. Although I shoot this one less than the others, 2500 to 3000 per year, it is an ideal shotgun for SD pheasants and Mallards over the decoys with Bismuth shot. I always shoot some skeet and 5 stand with this one before hunting season and when I do my part it absolutely crushes clay birds. In the past ten years it has been the only side by side at any of the local pigeon shoots.
All three are factory original and show a little honest wear as well as a few dings from many miles and hours in the field. They create conversation wherever I take them. My wish list includes a nice, original 30 or 32 inch, 12 gauge, non Monte Carlo, trap gun. I have been looking for quite a while.
I found a mint 30" Full & Full vent rib trap this summer and the same fellow also had a mint, Trap grade, straight stock, beavertail, 16 guage skeet gun with the best wood ever so I have added a couple to the safe this year. The trap gun crushes targets as does the skeet gun and the skeet gun worked very well in Wisconsin last month on Grouse and Woodcock.

[Grant Tom]

I've been collecting 21s for many years. All of my collectio are of the 20, 28 & 410 gauges. All but 4 have been Engraved by friends John Kusmit & Nick Kusmit. My collection star is the one built by Winchester to honor John M. Olin with his blessing & have a picture of him & myself holding the gun. Another one is a copy of Mr. Olin's gun done by Kornbreth. It appears in the Wilson book of engraving. A 28 Ga with 2 sets of 28 Ga barrels. It was engraved by John & Nick Kusmit together.

Any 21s are a prize to have today, the don't make then as good any more..

Grant Tom

[edavison]

I used to say I had one fewer than when a buy my next one. Having just displayed my "herd" at a game dinner, I have a new answer...24 feet(i.e. three 8ft tables). I shoot/hunt all of them, but have a few favorites. The Ulrich grade 6 seen on pg 174 of Schwing's book; a 16ga Chrysler pattern, which letters as a grade 6 with "scroll instead of pictures", is a GREAT pheasant gun; the .410 is a joy on clays inside 35 yards and pen raised birds; and of course, my Grandfather's gun, which he gave me at age 13, saying he was too old to hit anything with a 20ga, has accompanied me from northern Canada to southern Argentina and lots of places in between. The 21 was meant to be shot...SHOOT THEM! Then take good care of them 'till the next time. Ed

[bobby Cash]

I've got a set.
-1937 "Custom Built" Flatside. 12 gauge, 26", SK1/SK2
-1947 "Skeet". 20 gauge, 28", SK1/SK2
-1933 "Tournament". 20 gauge, 30"(3"), Full/Mod
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk136/2low8s/cruise1809.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk136/2low8s/cruise18052.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk136/2low8s/001.jpg
http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk136/2low8s/002.jpg

[Grant Tom]

Boby Cash, Does your 1934 21 have a funny lookin Stock like a boat paddle?? If not, it might have been Re-Stocked.

Grant Tom

[bobby Cash]

Boby Cash, Does your 1934 21 have a funny lookin Stock like a boat paddle?? If not, it might have been Re-Stocked.

Grant Tom

Hello Grant,
Factory straight grip. If you've seen the 26" set of barrels, please let me know.
Bobby

Win. 21, SN 61XX
Symbol: G2150B
Tournament grade
20 gauge
26 inch barrels
Right - #1, Left - #2
Sights: Bradley red 1/8" and 94B
2nd barrel set: 20 ga., 30 inches, Modified/Full, less forearm, #81 and 94B sights
Single trigger
Selective ejector
Non-automatic safety
Straight grip stock
Beavertail forearm - "make sure forearm fits both barrel sets"
Tournament grade wood
Pitch - 1, Pull - 14, Drop at heel - 2, Drop at comb - 1-1/2
Order: 466-452, Item 1
For: Western Cartridge Co.
Inspection started: 12-13-1933
Inspection finished: ?-12-1933

[cartod]

These 6 have followed me around for years.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Guns%20and%20Hunting/IMG_0911.jpg

This one is my favorite, special orderd by john olin for Lou Wasey. Lou owned a small island (cat KeY) and let mr olin build a house there. Engraved by ulrich, this one still gets shot every now and then.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Guns%20and%20Hunting/IMG_5707.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Guns%20and%20Hunting/IMG_5713-1.jpg

here's mr wasey with this 21 in a 1950's Sports Illustrated article waiting to shoot.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Guns%20and%20Hunting/IMG_5516.jpg

[Grant Tom]

Finding barrels 20 ga & 26 in barrels, it's like trying to win a lottery. Besides, if you fin a set, who can match the barrels to your frame correctly. The hinge roll will not fit properly. Lost art that died with the Winchester Gun Smiths. Lots of gun smiths will fit them on, but not correctly.

Grant Tom

[Russ G.]

One. A G2186B that I actively shoot skeet and 5-stand with.

I wanted the 'Model 21' experience firsthand, and it's been rewarding.

There may be others in the future. This is a smallish club. Many people own multiple guns so the actual number of 21 owners is quite a bit lower than the production figures indicate.

The gun is widely misunderstood. Some people can't or won't appreciate that any gun is a compromise - as is anything engineered by man. No one gun can be all things.

Wish list: A 20ga CSMC 21 with 30" barrels, Hession, PG, SK/LM, #3 scratched, with a piece of blonde English with dark streaks.

[budrichard]

"Wish list: A 20ga CSMC 21 with 30" barrels, Hession, PG, SK/LM, #3 scratched, with a piece of blonde English with dark streaks."

That's a very nice wish! I'm sure Tony can make that happen. I would love to see it.-Dick

[bdshipp]

I have 9 and love all of them. I had 10 until last week when I sold a 20 ga double trigger with extractors first or second year gun. I have (3) 12 ga. one is a deluxe trap VR three barrel set, one a field grade with two barrels, and one a standard field grade. I have (4) 16 ga, two are skeet grade each with 2 barrels one of which is #5 engraved by Pauline, one is field grade with two barrels, and one is field grade with aftermarket #1 engraving and "B" carving. I have (2) 20 ga each with two barrels. Both are skeet grade. I don't have time to use them all and at the end of the day I am a 16 ga advocate. - Bill

[cartod]

Sorry I should have ID'd them....From top to bottom:

20 gauge trap grade M/F 1934
20 guage trap skeet grade skk1/ sk2 1938
12 gauge Custom Deluxe (1 of 8 ordered for Adolph Blaich) 1945
12 guage field grade1955
12 gauge skeet gun that is unfired 1948
12 guage custom grade engraved by Salerno 1966

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Guns%20and%20Hunting/IMG_0911.jpg

Here is the Duck grade I just picked up. Its in VG original cond. with very nice wood for a duck gun. Cant wait to get it here.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b307/cartod/Guns%20and%20Hunting/pix098317510.jpg