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budrichard
11-08-07, 02:01 PM
First, acquire a copy of Ned Swing's book, 'Winchester's Finest, The Model 21'.
This is the indespensible reference for the Production Years and the Custom Shop Years. USRAC and CSMC are not referenced but the information presented will lay a good foundation for your purchase.
Second, read and study the type of 21 you wish to purchase or use the book as a reference for evaluating a Model 21 you contemplate purchasing.
Third, acquire or have the use of a Professional Bore gauge and chamber lenght gauges. Many owners have modified the chambers or choking on thier Model 21's. You want to know how your Model 21 is choked. This will not always match conventional choke constrictions or chamber lengths. Winchester in particular had thier own way of doing things. There is table of constrictions available in Swing's book. For reference I have found 3" Magnums chambers 2&7/8" using a set of Galazan gauges for both 12 and 20 gauge. go figure? The IM 12 gauge choke seems to be a lot lighter than even the Winchester specification. You simply must know what the constrictions are.
Fourth, note ALL markings on the reciever bottom, rib, barrel flats, reciever flats, butt and grip cap if any. These markings are your road map to determining what the Grade and Model is. There are many variations of the Model 21 besides the Field Grade. Valuation is often according to Grade and Model.
Inspection, if familiar with double barrel shotguns and Model 21's in particular, you can do this yourself. If not, you need assistance. If the valuation is high, an independant may be chosen but note that the Model 21 dealers and anyone of significant note, all know each other and it is up to you to determine if you are getting an objective valuation. Dealers generally look at firearms as commodities and usually evaluate different than collectors or shooters.
Sixth, ask questions of this Forum and others to try to answer any questions you have.
Seventh, valuation. In the final analysis, the valuation of an item is determined when money changes hands between the seller and the purchaser. Blue Books, Auctions values and other sources are all useful but they don't determine what to pay for a particular Model 21. YOU DO!
Eighth, look and handle every Model 21 you can. The more familiar you are with the Model 21, the better when it comes time to purchase.
Ninth, it is only by actually purchasing and acquiring Model 21's or any other shotgun, that one really begins to know the nuances and gain a feel for the brand. Unfortuneatly that will entail a substantial amount of time and money and maybe some mistakes along the way.
If you are not comfortable with evaluating used shotguns or purchasing and selling them or if time is important, then consider a new Model 21 if expenses permit. The $$ bite is large but you get exactly what you want. There are a few Dealers in used Model 21's that I could reccamend if you PM me. As I accept no advertizing from any Dealers on this Forum, there is no conflict of interest. But remember that Model 21's are commodoties to Dealers and they just don't evauate as collectors. -Dick

Grant Tom
06-05-09, 12:37 PM
I've been collecting 21's over 50 years. At 1 time I had 51 of them. Now down to 14. All small gauges & highly engraved. If you have any questions about 21's. I'll be happy to share answers for you. I've visithed the original
21 factory over 20 times before the sale to U S Repeating arms. I do not own any U S Repeating Arms 21's.

Grant Tom

rperlichek
07-18-09, 08:37 AM
Grant: Thanks for posting info. on your experience with the Model '21.

I have certainally seen your name mentioned in several publications.

My question is - Is the Duck Model with 32.0" barrels in excellent original condition considered to be more valuable to collectors than the same condition Field-Grade gun?
Bob Perlichek

budrichard
07-20-09, 06:32 AM
A 'Duck' built for stock and in original condition has three features that a 12 gauge built for stock does not have. The one feature most usually associated with the 'Duck' is 3" chambers. The second is FULL/FULL chokes which are invariably 35 thousands restriction. The third and of almost equal importance to the waterfowl hunter is a LOP of 13&5/8".
It is quite amazing what a little change in LOP means when wearing thick clothing out in the blind!
The 35 thousand choke really makes this a pass shooting gun with todays ammunition and because the Model 21 was not designed for steel shot, there is little non-toxic to choose from. I used Kent TM #1 exclusively in my 32" 'Duck' and 40+ yd one shot dead in the air kills were the norm.

So in answer to your question, most assign about a $500 premium to a 'Duck'.
32" 'Duck' are not rare so that's about my top but it all depends on whose selling and whose purchasing.
Hopefully Grant will comment.-Dick

woodedareas
03-14-10, 04:14 PM
I am a new member and I am purchasing Ned Swings book as I do not have it.
I am an older guy and have given up large game hunting for bird hunting with my EnglishSetter. I have decided that i want to purchase my first Model 21 this year before bird season. Several of the guns I have looked at are almost mint and I know they will receive some wear from hunting. I am not much for engraving bit I am into great walnut. I plan to leave my shotguns to my grandsons and I do not want to devalue or harm a good gun. So I plan to start out purchasing a gun that has some use but is still in excellent condition. To whom do I turn for inspection when I have located a gun that I want. I am also having a tough time with value as there are dramatically different prices for what I observe to be the same gun. I am in Illinois?
Thanks

Grant Tom
03-19-10, 10:03 AM
I am a new member and I am purchasing Ned Swings book as I do not have it.
I am an older guy and have given up large game hunting for bird hunting with my EnglishSetter. I have decided that i want to purchase my first Model 21 this year before bird season. Several of the guns I have looked at are almost mint and I know they will receive some wear from hunting. I am not much for engraving bit I am into great walnut. I plan to leave my shotguns to my grandsons and I do not want to devalue or harm a good gun. So I plan to start out purchasing a gun that has some use but is still in excellent condition. To whom do I turn for inspection when I have located a gun that I want. I am also having a tough time with value as there are dramatically different prices for what I observe to be the same gun. I am in Illinois?
Thanks

Collecting Model 21s, I've done it since 1970 when the were rather in expensive. Buying a 21 in smaller guages is a wise investment. I am origianly a Skeet Shooter & Bird hunter. Enjoyed shooting them. Hard to find good ones now. Beware of all the so called letters that come with the guns. Lot of them are not real!

Grant Tom

Grant Tom
02-25-11, 08:59 AM
Grant: Thanks for posting info. on your experience with the Model '21.

I have certainally seen your name mentioned in several publications.

My question is - Is the Duck Model with 32.0" barrels in excellent original condition considered to be more valuable to collectors than the same condition Field-Grade gun?
Bob Perlichek

Sorry for answering so late! To me YES! How ever for value, the smaller the gauge, the more valueable. Some one asked about proof marks. I've seen quite a few collectors that have the Winchester proof stamp

edavison
03-18-11, 03:55 PM
Grant: Your advice proved so true earlier this week! Notwithstanding, it must have been hard to part w/ a gun like that one. I was interested in the Grade 5 (not Grade 3) 16ga., but someone else was more interested! I don't know how far a trip it would be, but it would be great to see some of your small gauge guns this July at the 21 Gun Salute. Ed

budrichard
03-19-11, 06:56 AM
I am a new member and I am purchasing Ned Swings book as I do not have it.
I am an older guy and have given up large game hunting for bird hunting with my EnglishSetter. I have decided that i want to purchase my first Model 21 this year before bird season. Several of the guns I have looked at are almost mint and I know they will receive some wear from hunting. I am not much for engraving bit I am into great walnut. I plan to leave my shotguns to my grandsons and I do not want to devalue or harm a good gun. So I plan to start out purchasing a gun that has some use but is still in excellent condition. To whom do I turn for inspection when I have located a gun that I want. I am also having a tough time with value as there are dramatically different prices for what I observe to be the same gun. I am in Illinois?
Thanks

Sorry for the delay in answering.

This is a query that anyone new to Model 21 collecting would find helpful.
Please re-read my sections of the Forum devoted to Model 21 purchasing.
Unless you are a seasoned Model 21 Collector, first assume that any gun in 'Mint' condition had been refinished.
Dealers will tell you that refinishing a Model 21 does not affect value but it certainly does to a collector and you should pay less for a re-finished Model 21.
As for inspection, if not willing to spend years learning, the only person(s) I can reccamend in the Illinois area would be Paul Crosnoe and myself. PM me where in Illinois you are located/ cell # and I will contact you. Any reputable dealer will offer a 3 day inspection period and therein lies your problem, inspect and evaluate within 3 days.
I would only purchase from a reputable source such as Steve Barnett, Crosnoe and maybe Ivory Beads. You will have to pay more but you will be in better hands. CSMC has a very good inventory and they are also a source.
Valuation is in the eye of the beholder and one time sellers usually think they have hit a gold mine with any Model 21 whereas 'dealers' treat them as a commodity so that sometimes explains valuation differences. By 'dealer' I mean those that sell lots of Model 21's per year. Many think they are 'dealers' but they are really hobbiests. Of course a few are just crooks.
There is/used to be a Show just west of Chicago a few times a year where Paul Crosnoe and some others attend and that could be useful but the supply of Model 21's at Shows has dried up as most business for selling has turned to the Internet.
Send contact info and I will call you.-Dick