desirability of changing chokes?

[bob tiller]

I am interested in buying a model 21. The one of interest has barrels choked ws-1 and ws-2. The primary use will be for hunting pheasant and sage grouse, and chokes of mod. and full are desired. What will be the impact on the guns value of either modifying the chokes with reforming or installing screw-in choke tubes. Are these changes technically feasible?

[budrichard]

1. Chokes of SK1 and SK2 with todays modern ammunition are fully capable of taking birds out to 40 yds as modern ammunition with shotcups pattern tighter than the ammunition used to develop and pattern Winchester SK1 and SK2 chokes of the 1930's and 1940's.
2. You can take it off but can't put it back as an old machinest once told me. I don't know of any process to make chokes tighter.
3. It is possible for Screw chokes to be installed if enough wall thickness is there but SK1 results in pretty thin barrel walls so only someone like Briley woudl be able to tell you if the gun in question is feasable.
4. For a Winchester Model 21 collector such as myself, if you modify the chokes, the gun is valuless-period.
5. As a shooter after being modified, beauty is in the eye of the beholder(purchaser) but be assured unless a novice, it will result in a drop in price.
I would suggest patterning the gun of interest with the loads to be used before making a decision.
Winchester went to considerable time and effort to develop thier SK1 and SK2 chokes as they are just not a constriction but a profile, its a shame to negate that effort.
There are lots of Model 21's choked MOD/FULL out there and a Winchester Model 21 FULL choke is 35 thousands which with the proper load will take game out to 50 yds.
Good luck in your quest!-Dick

[Grant Tom]

What gauge is your Mod 21? I have a 20 gauge that is marked Sk 1 & 2. If you checked the chokes out of the factory, it's identical to IC Mod. Mr. Olin
himself told me that the Skeet Choke of the Model 21 were made for upland game. In the beginning when I 1st collected 21s. All of the collectors were staying away from the skeet chokes not knowing their capabilities. With thr
modern shot cup shotgun shells, you couldn't ask for better all around chokes.
I have very few Mod Full guns in my collection of 21s.

Grant Tom

[MarkOue]

Since you haven't bought the M21 you might consider investing in a dial indicator choke gauge. Perhaps someone in your area has one? Measure the constriction in respect to the bore and you might be surprised!

Like Dick wrote if you change a M21 the value will decrease. If you really want a M21 with Briley chokes check Guns America or Gun Broker and you'll probably find one. The best part is that the $400+ Briley price is free to you and if you buy correctly, that M21 will sell for less than if it were unaltered. That's how I bought my M21 Duck and what a great clays gun it is! Nope, it's not a collector's gun anymore but I bought it to shoot!

Mark

[Grant Tom]

Dear Mark,

If and any way that the barrel are altered or cut. You devalue the gun right away and would be hard to sell in the future.

Grant Tom:)

[MarkOue]

Understood,
As I wrote, I bought my M21 with Brileys installed. It was priced accordingly.
Mark

[Lon E. Morris]

Bob,

I understand the basis for all of the replies, and all are correct from a collector standpoint. That being said, I live in southern Montana and hunt Pheasant, Chukars, and Hungarian Partridge. I have a lot of experience with Sage Grouse, but due to their limited numbers do not shoot them anymore. In this country, IC, WS1, WS2, and other open chokes are worthless. Hun's usually jump at 30+ yards, and the shot is usually taken at 40 + yards. Chukars are worse, wild pheasant with a breeze are in the same league, and lastly Sage Grouse with a tail wind are the most deceptive of the bunch. All of these birds require a lot of killing and will simply fly through an open pattern at 40 yards. In the west, on wild birds, mod and full chokes with heavy shot are required!

My gun of choice is my standard grade 16 gauge model 21. The gun has 28 inch barrels, is light and is one of the best handling shotguns I have ever shot. The gun is equipped with Briley chokes and you could not pry it away from me. I shoot factory loaded 11/8 oz. 6's for calm days and handloaded 5's in the wind. The Briley chokes I shoot 90% of the time are improved modified, and full. However, for club or preserves birds, shooting over pointers, I can pop in "open" chokes. I also firmly believe, in the old adage of the man that shoots "one gun".... Lon

[ejsxs]

Bob,

I understand that there is a third method, aside from leaving the barrels as they are or inserting Briley chokes. Widenning the bore a few mils before the chokes by lightly overboring the barrels. Winchester factory tolerances were in the order of 0.005 thou, enough to go to Mod and IC in a 16Ga barrel. Find the right gunsmith and measure the barrels carefuly for feasability. Make sure that barrel walls don´t go below 0.025 at 9" from the breech or below 0.020 further down. It will be a minor modification that should not alter the gun value IMO.

[kgb]

Bob, Dick didn't read it apparently, but I posted on Jan 11th of this year that choke can be added/restored and Mike Orlen did it (jug/recess choke) to a barrel for me. It was a Modified choke barrel that someone had opened to only .003", and Mike brought it to around .014" of choke which limited patterning showed now gives me around 17% tighter patterns than I get from the other barrel, a true .000" Cylinder bore.

If a comparable constriction can be added to a WS2 barrel (in my M21 12ga Skeet gun that's .015"; pretty much a Modified choke), and you'd wind up with more than .025" of choke, that could do what you want. However, as originally choked, a WS2 might be capable of giving IM or Full choke patterns with the right shells. I once owned a Citori 16ga and patterned a reload using STS #5 shot though all of the choke tubes I had. Every choke from .015" on up showed over 70% patterns. You don't know what a barrel will do until you try it.

As indicated already, to a collector a gun will lose value if altered. I don't know actual percentages, but there are likely far fewer true collectors than shooters/hunters who want a gun for what it can do in the field or at a range.

For many sellers, alterations are either not mentioned or touted as being improvements and asking prices might not be much off of those of original guns. When I bought my gun with the opened Modified choke, the seller either didn't know about it or failed to mention it. Fortunately the gun worked fine with .000" and .003" chokes and it works just as well with the Modified choke restored.

Kirk

[budrichard]

To due this I think the barrel must over bored and the choke area left as is until the constriction wanted is reached. I believe Winchester at one time offered this service.
You are correct when you Posted "For many sellers, alterations are either not mentioned or touted as being improvements and asking prices might not be much off of those of original guns. When I bought my gun with the opened Modified choke, the seller either didn't know about it or failed to mention it."

Most dealers and purchasers do not have the proper equipment to measure barrel ID, choke constriction and chamber lenght. So most Model 21's are purchased soley on what's marked for chokes.-Dick

[Grant Tom]

Mr, Olin had his 21's reblued quite often.

In his collections of 21's, most of his engraved ones lost the sharpness on
the engravings. I was at the factory & saw a blown barrel & it was Mr. Olins.
In rebluing, the barrels are repolished over & over. In his case the barrels became very thin & blew up on him. Luckly no one was hurt. In rechoking the barrels as mentioned. You may have the same effect.

Grant Tom

[kgb]

Most dealers and purchasers do not have the proper equipment to measure barrel ID, choke constriction and chamber lenght. So most Model 21's are purchased soley on what's marked for chokes.-Dick

It seems more and more do, at least many on the web as some are listing thousandths along with choke designations. As you stated, Dick, most are probably purchased based on barrel markings and it is a little silly, in light of that, the way so many people state so flatly that altering a choke substantially reduces the value of a gun.

GT, are you sure that re-polishing after rebluing was the cause for the burst barrel you saw? Was that directly stated as the reason for the damage? To me, it's completely unbelievable.

Kirk

[Grant Tom]

It seems more and more do, at least many on the web as some are listing thousandths along with choke designations. As you stated, Dick, most are probably purchased based on barrel markings and it is a little silly, in light of that, the way so many people state so flatly that altering a choke substantially reduces the value of a gun.

GT, are you sure that re-polishing after rebluing was the cause for the burst barrel you saw? Was that directly stated as the reason for the damage? To me, it's completely unbelievable.

Kirk

Mr. Olin sent his 21s in regulary to have them reblued, before they can be blued. They must be Polished. I saw the blown barrel in the shop with
his matching serial #. For the price of 21s today. I would have them
check with a guage before purchased. I own 2 sets of guages for my
personal use.

Grant Tom

[kgb]

In rebluing, the barrels are repolished over & over. In his case the barrels became very thin & blew up on him.

GT, I acknowledge that barrels are polished when reblued. Apparently the employees of Olin's own company altered the barrels of one of his guns to the point of being unsafe. That is a shame.


Kirk

[budrichard]

In the FAQ's it says " In general it is best to stick to factual discussion of Posts."
Words like 'claim' can be inflammatory. Tom has told us his personal experience at the Winchester factory, whether or not the barrel failure was due to repolishing or another mechanism should not be up for debate. It happened and that's that.
I have observed this sort of interchange degenerate on other Forums. My commitment to the Members of this Forum is to not allow that to happen.
I don't want to Lock this Thread as it is a good discussion. I value Tom's years of personal experience with Winchester and I also value KGB's Model 21 experience. Let's end it at that. PM me if you want to continue the discussion of how this Forum should be Moderated. Thanks.-Dick

[Lon E. Morris]

Thanks Dick!

We don't need the garbage on this forum, and it seems to plague other forums. I feel remorse about saying WS1 & WS2 chokes are worthless here in Montana. Lon

[btdtst]

I have two 21's choked WS1/WS2. Both are unaltered barrels circa 1935. One is .006/.010 and the other is .009/.016. IMO the first is a 35 yard gun and the second one a 40 yard gun with high quality loads. Just my opinion and experience. I used to live in chukar/hun country and hunted 30 to 50 days a season for them. My minimum chokes for those birds was IC/IM. Much more effective for positive kills.

[Lon E. Morris]

I should point out my bias. I started huntind upland game and trap shooting when I was 15 (1965) and shot my Dad's Model 12 32' full choke gun (12 gauge) until I could afford to buy my Remington 870 30' full choke (12 gauge). When I really got serious about trap shooting in the late 1970's a friend loaned me a model 12 Trap gun Black Diamond, if I remember correctly. You can see the pattern 30" barrels and full chokes. When Steel shot came out and for other reasons I lost interest in upland, trap, and wildfowl shooting.

I started hunting again in about 1998, and with a little more money to spend started shooting O/U's but could never find one I could really shot to my old standards. The rage was 26" barrels and open chokes. I bought and sold about every kind of O/U made, and stayed with trend. My shooting was dismal. Several years ago, I bought a Model 23 Winchester with 25" barrels and open chokes. That year I hunted harder than I ever had, and did not bring a single bird to bag! My good friend Bruce Day (has two 21's posted) explained that at the ranges our western upland birds were flushing, the open chokes were not adequate to obtain clean kills. I bought a Model 21 12 gauge, with full and mod chokes, stocked correctly, and the results were instant! True to form, I sold that 21 to a friend, and bought a Model 21 Duck, straight stock with 32" full & full, and have been shooting it and the Model 21 16 gauge with good results.

I shot trap with the 16 gauge yesterday, and did notice that the 28" barrels not give the same "follow through" as the 32" Duck gun, and I did not shoot consistently on crossing birds. I will shoot both guns this summer and by opener in September, will have made my mind up about which gun to shoot. I still believe in the 1 gun theory. Lon

[Lon E. Morris]

I should point out my bias. I started huntind upland game and trap shooting when I was 15 (1965) and shot my Dad's Model 12 32' full choke gun (12 gauge) until I could afford to buy my Remington 870 30' full choke (12 gauge). When I really got serious about trap shooting in the late 1970's a friend loaned me a model 12 Trap gun Black Diamond, if I remember correctly. You can see the pattern 30" barrels and full chokes. When Steel shot came out and for other reasons I lost interest in upland, trap, and wildfowl shooting.

I started hunting again in about 1998, and with a little more money to spend started shooting O/U's but could never find one I could really shot to my old standards. The rage was 26" barrels and open chokes. I bought and sold about every kind of O/U made, and stayed with trend. My shooting was dismal. Several years ago, I bought a Model 23 Winchester with 25" barrels and open chokes. That year I hunted harder than I ever had, and did not bring a single bird to bag! My good friend Bruce Day (has two 21's posted) explained that at the ranges our western upland birds were flushing, the open chokes were not adequate to obtain clean kills. I bought a Model 21 12 gauge, with full and mod chokes, stocked correctly, and the results were instant! True to form, I sold that 21 to a friend, and bought a Model 21 Duck, straight stock with 32" full & full, and have been shooting it and the Model 21 16 gauge with good results.

I shot trap with the 16 gauge yesterday, and did notice that the 28" barrels not give the same "follow through" as the 32" Duck gun, and I did not shoot consistently on crossing birds. I will shoot both guns this summer and by opener in September, will have made my mind up about which gun to shoot. I still believe in the 1 gun theory. Lon