Custom Shop 28 gauge 'Pigeon Grade'

[budrichard]

This is a Winchster Custom Shop 'Pigeon Grade' 28 gauge built in 1978. It has 28" VR IC/MOD barrels, A carving and weighs 6# 15oz.
A very nice Model 21 28 gauge!
Compare the weight to a CSMC 'Baby' frame and its over 1 pound heavier. Certainly for a Winchester collector or a SC or high volume dove gun but not for prolonged carry.-Dick

[edavison]

Dick...Great gun! If it's ever for sale, PLEASE let me know. I do not yet have a 28ga 21, and there's nothing wrong w/ starting at the top!-Ed

[P.Muerrle]

Don't know who did it but that gun was neither engraved or checkered in the Custom Shop.

[budrichard]

I don't own the gun in question but got the pics off Guns International. It looked good to me.
Pauline, educate us as to why the gun is not factory as it was represented to be.-Dick

[P.Muerrle]

In 1978 the only engravers were Nick Kusmit and Joe Crowley. This is not their work. The No. 6 pattern is not executed properly either. The only wood carver\checkerer was John Durkin. This is not his work. If they represented this as an A carving, it is not. Once in a blue moon a customer did request to have an outside engraver but this resulted in a custom style engraving. No one ever requested the checkering and engraving done on the outside. Incidentally Guns International is one of the worst sites that I have seen for phony guns.

[budrichard]

Pauline, here is the description from Guns International:
"Winchester 21 Pigeon- 28 Ga. #1636 Winchester 21 Pigeon Grade Ser. No. W33159 28 Ga.- 28" Vent Rib Barrels choked IC/Mod. Full fancy american walnut straight grip stock & forearm A-carved with checkered butt. 14 1/2"X 1 1/2"X 2 1/4", wt.- 6 lbs. 15 oz., Engine turned bright metal surfaces, auto safety, gold plated trigger. New in the box with manufacturing order dated 4/15/78. A spectacular 28 Ga. 21! "

What do your records say about this particular gun? I am interested in your observations to learn how to avoid misrepresentations. The gun is listed with a manufacturing date of 1978 which I assumed was from the Winchester Custom Shop. The initial Post description is mine and the description in this Post is from the listing. Thanks.-Dick

[P.Muerrle]

After looking at the other pics on this guys site I can tell you the engraving is much more inaccurate to the pattern than I initially thought. I also don't like the color of the forearm. I also see a new in the box M42 on his site with "factory original" papers. That is kind of interesting since I engraved that gun and I was not even born then. The papers he shows are not factory papers, believe me I've seen more than a few of these floating around. I would love to see the supposed papers he has on the M21.

[edavison]

Pauline...Now that I know the origin of the pics, I recall getting a " No Records" form Cody. I see fron the posts here, you also seem to have Winchester records. In the past, I've passed on a number of guns which Cody couldn't authenticate, in whole or in part. Are your records available to folks like me who only want "real" Winchester 21s? Ed

[cartod]

Another one BUSTED! Nice!

[ajjar]

At risk of sounding terribly ignorant,who/how would a "fake" be made?

[P.Muerrle]

I missed a few of these questions. Yes my records are available. I will be putting up info on my website as soon as I can get to it. In the meantime you can PM me.
As far as making a fake, it is easy enough. Pick up a used M21 in need of refinish, get it engraved and up grade wood and checker or carve. Make up a fake work order or not, and you made one. Oh yeah, don't forget to check with Cody to make sure they have no record on the serial no.
It sounds like a lot of expense but considering what the final product sells for it is worth it to these guys. What they don't consider is that there are engravers log records and other work order and upgrade\repair records that Cody doesn't have. The bottom line is that many, many people are too quick to buy before they research.

[budrichard]

At risk of sounding terribly ignorant,who/how would a "fake" be made?

At the risk of contentious libel problems, I think we have been given expert advice.-Dick
I will Lock this thread.