Two Topics I Wish Schwing Had Covered

[durco]

Hi, boys:

I have received my copy of Schwing's book and am devouring it, page by page.
While I am very grateful for the fact Schwing went to the trouble to write and produce it, I wish he had covered a couple of topics that were not explained well at all, to wit:

1) The ebony tip in the forend. I know, I know - I wouldn't even have noticed this exclusion but for the fact my one and only 21 has it, but still - was it an option, or what? (Good photo on bottom of page 124.)
2) Schwing's reference to the unique Winchester No. 1 Skeet choke being a "bell choke" - complete with patent. Anybody know anything about this "bell choke"? (Ref: page 70 - caption under bottom photo. Also, bottom paragraph, page 69.)

Mike Durhan

[budrichard]

The Winchester Model 21 had a roughly 50 year history under Winchester management and the documentation of the era is very different than today.
Ned began at the end after Winchester had sold to USRAC and USRAC had jobbed out the remaining work to CSMC. So i am not surprised that there is a lack of documentation of feature chnages.
In terms of choke and especially Winchester SK1 and SK2. A choke is not just a constriction in the barrel but can involve any type of curve in the barrel. Winchester spent a lot of time developing these chokes with ammunition of the era. I don't know of any other references other than Schwing's book.-Dick

[durco]

The Winchester Model 21 had a roughly 50 year history under Winchester management and the documentation of the era is very different than today.
Ned began at the end after Winchester had sold to USRAC and USRAC had jobbed out the remaining work to CSMC. So i am not surprised that there is a lack of documentation of feature chnages.
In terms of choke and especially Winchester SK1 and SK2. A choke is not just a constriction in the barrel but can involve any type of curve in the barrel. Winchester spent a lot of time developing these chokes with ammunition of the era. I don't know of any other references other than Schwing's book.-Dick
Well, there you go then..... That explains the lack of inclusion. Thanks.
Mike Durhan

[kgb]

Mike, you may have discovered this by now, but the belling of the choke would describe the fact that instead of tapering inward or having a parallel, the choke terminates in an outward taper. I've seen an illustration somewhere, maybe on a copy of the patent itself, that shows it plainly. In pulling a choke gauge through two WS1 barrels I've found the choke to narrow down by about .004/.005", then open from that point of tightest constriction by .017" or .019" at the muzzle.

That opening at the muzzle could be called a "bell choke", I can't say for sure whether it's supposed to be a convex shape or a straight cone shape and can't tell from the movement of my gauge. I've also read of skeet barrels given a reverse choke with the bore being larger at the muzzle than in the rest of the bore without description of how it is accomplished.


I'm told that with modern ammunition the WS1 will produce patterns approximating the initial constriction (.004"/.005")---nowadays most Skeet barrels and choke tubes have the Briley standard of .005" constriction in 12ga. My M21 Skeet is WS1 and WS2, the WS2 has .014" and patterns a lot tighter than the WS1 as should be expected.

Kirk

[durco]

kgb:
Thanks for your response. Yes - I have now figured out what a "bell choke" is. I am a sucker for neat tools and found a like-new digital bore micrometer set at 1/2 of what a new set costs from Brownell's. Anyway, I have been playing with it and it clearly showed me what a WS-1 "bell choke" is - and it is exactly as you described. Very interesting. Has a constriction (like any standard type choke) then, flares out like a blunderbuss muzzle. The flare after the constriction seems useless by modern methods, but who knows what effect it has on the shot pattern - especially with today's wads which have a "cup" for the shot?

Everybody who has it sure seems to like WS-1. So, it must work well - even today. Also interesting that WS-2 does not have the bell after the constriction.

Incidentally, I also found where Schwing covered the ebony tip. It was much further back in his book, under the section where he covers "Custom Built, Deluxe and Custom Deluxe Grades", page 161.
Mike

[durco]

Kirk:
I said "like a blunderbuss", but I should point out, I cannot tell from my bore micrometer whether the outward taper is straight or concave/convex.....
Mike

[kgb]

Mike, mine's a Galazan that works with 16ga and 12ga and it'd take a better operator than me to tell the exact shape as well.

For a short while I also had a M12 with a WS1 choke and with just the one barrel the look was even more pronounced. A squadmate asked me if I'd honed out the muzzle and noted that it looked very thin....it is and seems like a light bump would dent it or at least tweak it out of round pretty easily.

Now that I'm flashing back, I think of a Pigeon grade M12 I should have pursued more aggressively as opportunities on some guns leave pretty quick!! The guy had a Trap and the Pigeon Skeet and sent some pictures which I will post, soaked by my tears, here.

Kirk

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/Gordonpicsrus/Arms/M12BUTTS.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/Gordonpicsrus/Arms/M12FORENDS.jpg

http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd256/Gordonpicsrus/Arms/m12skeetleftsideview.jpg

[durco]

Kirk:
Funny you should mention that about the barrel at the muzzle being real thin. The guy I bought my 21 from was not a shotgun man and (I believe) gave me a very fair price because he was afraid "some skeet shooter", as he stated, "may have opened the chokes on this gun. You never know what those skeet shooters may do to a gun".
My bore constrictions measure just as they should - and I am convinced now that he simply was not familiar with the configuration of WS-1, mistaking it for an altered choke.
That model 12 you passed on is a real beauty. Knock-out wood.
Mike

[rperlichek]

Re: The Model '21 -- In Schwing's book p 111 under "Forearms" he states that the Trap, Duck and Magnum grades had a forearm that was 11" in length and 2.45" across the bottom and that this style wraps around the barrels about 0.25" above the barrell CL.
I own "Duck" model S/N 1824x with the "Kidney"-style checkering pattern. My observation is that it measures 11.0" long but is only 2.2" wide. The kidney pattern is 7.25" long at the top not 8.9" as stated in Schwing p119. The pitch is 18 lpi.
I also own what appears to be a new forearm S/N 11987 with a "Diamond" checkering patten 20 lpi. This one is indeed 2.45" wide and appears to be kind of big and "blocky" if it were mounted on a gun. It looks wide and flat but it matches the description in the book.
My questions are: 1). Can any other "Duck" model owners provide forearm dim's? 2). is anyone interested in owning my new wide blocky forearm?
Thanks Robert Perlichek, Albuquerque, NM

[budrichard]

Alas, my 32" 'Duck' is gone and I can't find a picture of the different fore end styles that I once had with the fore ends lined up side by side. Suffice it to say, Winchester 21's were made for over 50 years and it was a time where variations from drawings did occur for whatever reason. Many individuals passed through the Winchester checkering/wood shop in that time so i am not surprised to find no universal standard for fore ends.
The best fore end design is what is somtimes called the 'Hession' fore end or in later Winchester speak, a 'field beavertail'. This was about 9" long and i had what was sold as 'Trap' gun to me with one of these fore ends. The gun had a Monte Carlo with cheek piece, vent rib and 32" barrels with the short fore end. A 'Live Pigeon' gun if I ever saw one as it was choked IM/F. I have a 20 gauge from the 'Custom Shop' in 3" Magnum with a Monte Carlo and the afore mentioned 'Field beavertail' or Hession. It is very comfortable.
I wouldn't be concerned if a fore end differs from Schwings book. If it is serialized to the gun and looks proper, than it is. I have never seen a Trap or 'Duck' with a standard fore end that looked out of place on the gun.-Dick

[kgb]

My 12ga is a Skeet grade gun, 28" WS1/WS2, PG, kidney pattern checkering, and the forearm is of the larger Trap dimensions. Don't know if it was ordered that way or just assembled that way.

[Grant Tom]

[QUOTE=durco;213]Hi, boys:

I have received my copy of Schwing's book and am devouring it, page by page.
While I am very grateful for the fact Schwing went to the trouble to write and produce it, I wish he had covered a couple of topics that were not explained well at all, to wit:

1) The ebony tip in the forend. I know, I know - I wouldn't even have noticed this exclusion but for the fact my one and only 21 has it, but still - was it an option, or what? (Good photo on bottom of page 124.)
2) Schwing's reference to the unique Winchester No. 1 Skeet choke being a "bell choke" - complete with patent. Anybody know anything about this "bell choke"? (Ref: page 70 - caption under bottom photo. Also, bottom paragraph, page 69.)

Grant Tom says that the bell choke are only in the 12 & 16 Ga guns. I got the specs from the Custom Shop at Winchester & Product Service before the sale to USRC.

[Russ G.]

If the 'Bell' style skeet choke doesn't work with modern ammunition, somebody should tell Beretta.

Their skeet chokes, both in the Mobil Choke variety and Optima line are copies of a WS-1.

My experience is that this style of choke gives a very wide and even pattern, and it seems the only way Beretta could acheive this with their .722 bores of old.

My skeet grade 21 measures .008" constriction before the 'bell' and shoots nothing like the expected IC from such a constriction. It's very much a skeet choke.