Jack O'Connor and Elmer

[casonet]

I believe that I have read every available book written by Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith. I enjoy both authors for different reasons. Elmer seemed to prefer Westley Richards and Ithica doubles while Jack was very high on his model 21s. Although there is no question about the durability and strength of the Model 21 locking bolt and receiver, Elmer seemed to prefer a "dolls head" extension of the rib and a cross bolt greneer style lock. He hardly mentions model 21s in his 1967 book: "Shotguns". Despite this, he admits that he had trouble keeping his Ithica double from flying open at firing and sent it back to the factory for work to cure this. I believe that the gun he refers to is Col. Askin's #5 Ithica that he purchased after Col. Askins passed away. Any opinions on this?

Second, Jack O'Connor was one of the biggest fans of the model 21 that I know of. He makes mention throughout his writings about the quality of the pre war guns vs the post war guns and discusses how the post war guns are simply not the quality of the pre war models. In particular he talks about the wood and checkering and the fitting of the metal parts. I am aware that most if not all of the receivers were produced in the pre war years but perhaps not the barrels. I have also read Schwing's book. What is the general opinion of the quality of pre war vs. post war guns? I have a model 42 that my dad got in 1936 and a model 62 that he got about the same time. Both seem to have a more quality appearance than their post war counterparts, but that's just my opinion based on casual obervation.

[budrichard]

I grew up with Jack O'Connor and always enjoyed reading his articles. The Winchecter 270 and Model 21 became my holy grails. I think I have first editions of every book O'connor ever published including fiction works and one actually signed by Jack. There is at least one posthumous work available. I started to read Elmer when my interest in handguns started and found his works to be interesting and entertaining.
In terms of model 21 shotguns, its just about impossible to determine when a frame or barrel was actually manufactured and in some cases a gun made for stock may have stayed in inventory for awhile before an order was recieved.
In any event where I see the differences is in the engraved Model 21's with Ulrich engraving generally having a unique style and quality. When the engraver stuck to the 21-1 thru 21-6 patterns, I have not seen a bad factory engraved Model 21.
In terms of fit and finish, I see a definate difference in guns coming out of the Custom Shop after 1960. The checkering in particular is crisp with no wavers in the borders. Metal fit and finish is about equal for all factory Model 21's that I have encountered.
Usually a badly engraved Model 21 is a dead give away of non-factory work and non-standard checkering/carving also.-Dick

[casonet]

In your opinion is there any difference in the quality of the product produced by the WRA custom shop vs. the USRA custom shop? Some of the guns that I have seen from the USRA custom shop were real show stoppers.

[casonet]

One thing that I forgot to ask. If I look at the checkering on early Grand Americans vs. that of later production models there appears to be a difference in the Fluer d' lis. On my early guns (1960-1964) the Fluer d' lis are round in shape and almost button like with short, thick petals while on later guns the petals appear to be thin and more recurved. What can you say about this? and when did the change in style occur?

Thanks

[budrichard]

I have noticed the same thing but with only 227 Grand Americans out of the Winchester Custom Shop, one doesn't often get to personally examine let alone own a Grand American from the Custom Shop.
I know of no reference to this difference or why the change.
It would be very nice if you could Post pictures of the two carvings as they are referred to, for future reference.-Dick

[budrichard]

In your opinion is there any difference in the quality of the product produced by the WRA custom shop vs. the USRA custom shop? Some of the guns that I have seen from the USRA custom shop were real show stoppers.
Since for the most part, when USRAC assumed ownership of the manufacturing plant from Winchester, the Custom Shop stayed more or less intact, I don't see a difference but USRAC guns are few and far between. Throw in the fact that CSMC purchased the tooling and produced the last of the USRAC guns and you have quite a mix. I just evaluate the guns on thier own individual merits. Some of the early CSMC Grand Americans had dogs, I didn't like the style of.
I waited until I found a 'Baby' frame Grand American built as an exhibition gun that I liked the engraving on before purchasing. I personally examined the gun before purchase. The gun is online in the CSMC Model 21 catalog or you can order a catalog from CSMC in hard cover.
The field of Grand Americans is clouded by the fact that most refer to any 21-6 w/inlay as a Grand American when in fact, 'Grand Americans' only came out of the Custom Shop.
Its an expensive hobby!-Dick

[Grant Tom]

Since for the most part, when USRAC assumed ownership of the manufacturing plant from Winchester, the Custom Shop stayed more or less intact, I don't see a difference but USRAC guns are few and far between. Throw in the fact that CSMC purchased the tooling and produced the last of the USRAC guns and you have quite a mix. I just evaluate the guns on thier own individual merits. Some of the early CSMC Grand Americans had dogs, I didn't like the style of.
I waited until I found a 'Baby' frame Grand American built as an exhibition gun that I liked the engraving on before purchasing. I personally examined the gun before purchase. The gun is online in the CSMC Model 21 catalog or you can order a catalog from CSMC in hard cover.
The field of Grand Americans is clouded by the fact that most refer to any 21-6 w/inlay as a Grand American when in fact, 'Grand Americans' only came out of the Custom Shop.
Its an expensive hobby!-Dick


Amen! Grand Americans came out of the Winchester factory with 2 sets of barrels. I know of only 1 410/28 Grand American made by Winchester. Others have surfaced??????? How ever talking to all the retired pesonnel of the custom shop & office personel at Winchester only 1 was ever made by Winchester. I returned a 410 back to the factory and they made me a 410-28 Grand America. I have invoices & Pictures of the gun being produced in the factory. How ever the Cody personel will not acknowlege it as a Grand American or ever produced by Winchester. Don't know where their thoughts were? There was a single barrel 21/6 with gold sold at the Las Vegas Gun show billed as a Grand American. How ever with only 1 barrel it was later not called a Grand American. The 1st Grand American I purchased in 1971. I payed $3250.00 for it. When Winchester sold out to U S Repating Arms, the last price was 14,090.

Grant Tom

[P.Muerrle]

One thing that I forgot to ask. If I look at the checkering on early Grand Americans vs. that of later production models there appears to be a difference in the Fluer d' lis. On my early guns (1960-1964) the Fluer d' lis are round in shape and almost button like with short, thick petals while on later guns the petals appear to be thin and more recurved. What can you say about this? and when did the change in style occur?

Thanks

The earlier B carvings with the stubbier fleur d lis were done by Eddy Kaik. John Durkin started carving stocks in the Custom Shop in 1963. Eddy retired and it was at this time that John got permission to change the style of the fleur d lis to make it more pleasing to the eye.

[ajjar]

Nothing replaces having an insider's knowledge-Thanks Pauline