Refinished 21?

[jsdyer]

Hello:
I have just purchased a field Model 21 at auction for a reasonable sum. With serial number 2087x, I believe it was manufactured in the late 1940's. Serial #'s on the tang match the forearm wood and metal. It has 30" tubes, choked full/modified, and a center bead on a solid rib. Blueing is about 95% with some light damage at the bottom frame near the hinge where the previous owner(s) were not patient when reassembling the barrel. The blueing may be factory original. The barrel and rib are solid. The forearm has side to side wiggle. Can that be tightened? The wood is oil-finished, does not great figure, but not straight grained either. Wood is in nice shape with a few shallow dings and handling marks.
I am wondering if the gun has been refinished. Schwing, in Winchester's Finest, does not mention checkering like that on this gun. Rather than the 18 lines/inch Schwing speaks of for guns of this era, this one has rows of five lines spaced 0.06" apart, with a larger space of about 0.011", then more 0.06" lines. The lines seemed to have been chased into the wood with a knife and not a checkering tool. The workmanship and spacing of the lines is good with a similar sized checkered area as the standard 21's. The forearm and butt, as expected, have the same style checkering. I am wondering, if someone had the gun refinished, why would he have sanded down the checkering and recheckered in a non-original style?
The length of pull is 13 1/4", not standard, and the recoil pad is a Pachmayr with alternating black and white spacers. The recoil pad looks very old.
I would appreciated some opinions on this. I can supply pics if that would help.
Thanks,
J Dyer

[budrichard]

Pictures are certainly in order but I suspect from your description that the wood may have been replaced. The checkering sounds like 'skip line' which is/was popular on European guns. Post pics for a much better evaluation. Check the constrictions also.
Generally work of these guns is expensive so if the gun is shootable, just use it and enjoy.-Dick

[jsdyer]

Hello Dick:
Thank you for responding. The chokes are about 0.697" and 0.714".
I have attempted to attach a jpeg of the butt stock and forearm.
Also, do you know how I can tighten the forearm? I appreciate your help with this.
Regards,
J Dyer

[P.Muerrle]

Definitely not factory checkering. It appears that the wood was replaced which would probably explain the wiggle in the forearm. All M21s even production guns had some hand fitting of wood. A good gunsmith might be able to do something. The problem is, you can take wood away to make something fit but you can't make it fit if there is not enough wood. Again, a good gunsmith make be able to shim it up or bed it with something.

[budrichard]

Definately 'skip line' checkering as I thought. Popular in Europe on German and Austrian guns. Have you checked the proof marks for any foreign proofs?
In any event Pauline is correct, find a gunsmith familiar with Model 21 work to bed the forearm and then use.
Assuming a internal barrel ID of 729, your chokes would work out to 32/15, certainly in the ball park for Winchester FULL/MOD.
Post pictures of barrel markings and if possible the watertable. Frequently reblued guns have the watertable left blue. Also run your finger lightly over the barrel markings, if original strikes, they should have a slight raised edge due to metal displacement.-Dick

[jsdyer]

Hello:
Thanks for the continuing attention on this topic. I don't know anything at all about foreign proof marks. I have included jpegs of the watertable and bottom of the barrel assembly for your review. With my camera, it is the closest shot I can get. On the watertable, the proof seems to be a W with an elongated P over it, both within a circle. The same stamping is used on the bottom of each barrel approximately 3" in front of the breech. Opposite the serial number on the left barrel, the right barrel is stamped "DC". On the left barrel an "A" is stamped next to the proof mark. I have also included the forearm to show the serial numbers. I am thinking that this is original but refinished.
I appreciate your comments on this.
Regards,
Jeff

[P.Muerrle]

The serial no. on the forearm looks to be the correct stamping. The DC And A you refer to are gunsmith and inspector markings. The fact that the watertable has been blued I would suspect an outside refinish. This may explain the wiggle in your forearm as well. The WP in the oval is the Winchester proof mark.

[budrichard]

As I previously stated and Pauline confirmed "Frequently reblued guns have the watertable left blue. "
Fore end does look like original interior markings, so possibly a refinish on the wood and recheckering also.
Hope this all helps. How does the gun shoot which is the final deciding factor?-Dick

[jsdyer]

Thank you Pauline and Dick for your responses. I have not fired the gun. Wedding and tree planting this past weekend. The length of pull, at 13 1/4" is a bit short for me, another blunder on my part. Being too anxious to acquire a Model 21, I purchased a gun that I am not at ease with....the skip line checkering, the shortened butt stock, the not quite tight forearm. I am considering options such as restoration or just selling it. There may be enough wood left to rechecker the stock correctly, but I don't think they can restore the length of pull to 14". I think CSMC could restore my shotgun including correct checkering, stock finishing, barrel rebluing and frame rebluing for about $1500, but the stock would still be short. Other shotgun restoration services are considerably less, but likely much less qualified. Comments appreciated.
Just as an aside, I noted this weekend a Model 21 in 20ga. Skeet, restored and now in 95% condition go at a Rock Island Auction for $5,000. The gun had an LOP of 12". I cannot understand how that gun could have that much value, since only a petite person could shoot it comfortably.
Regards,
JDyer

[budrichard]

Any competant gunsmith could add a spacer for the correct LOP for you and probably bed the loose forearm. Frankly that's all the money I would invest in the gun. The $1500 figure from CSMC seems low to me. Did you intend to use the gun and how or just collect? You never get you money out of restoration and I never reccamend restoration unless a family hierloom or some such.
As an aside, I have seen a guy that airbrushes figure onto stock extensions where it looks almost perfect, another option.-Dick

[jsdyer]

Thank you for responding Dick, I value your opinion. When I spoke of restoration, I did not mean it in the traditional sense. I am just considering making the gun "more correct". My plans in acquiring the gun were to collect a classic American shotgun, manufactured within exacting tolerances, that would hold its value. I've appreciated the model 21 since I was an early teenager.
As far as using the gun, it will not be an everyday shooter, but I would occasionally use it for pheasants and clay fowl. I'm considering my options as to how to proceed.
Regards, Jeff